Please post your design feedback to the Summer Survival Event in this thread. For more information on the event please review this blog post.
thanks for your feedback, it is much appreciated. I'm going to go through answering questions I can.
how health will be done?
maybe health can only be recovered via Medi sprays? (found in the map?)
I'm worried about the fact its Free for all. Whats going to stop clans from "Meta Grouping"?
Would it be more wise to allow squads because people are going to squad up regardless?
Games like PUBG and H1Z1 have enough physical cover, like trees and houses, and visual cover, like bushes you can hide in. maybe sprinkle empty shells of cars around the map for cover. some maybe smoking?
Are cars also going to be limited? maybe only set/random spawns for civi cars can be driven, and player cars disabled?
I fear if cars are too easily available they will be too powerful in a game with limited ammo.
Changing the way health works would likely require a re-balance of weapons, which we want to avoid at this time. So initially at least we want to keep that working as it is.
As for grouping up and covering ones back, I don't think it's a terrible idea to allow it. They won't be able to get into a vehicle together, and the system will consider them enemies. A well lobbed grenade may make all their lives more miserable. Also in the end, only one can win. No hunger games scenarios here
We will probably disable civilians and civilian cars. Disabling vehicle deployment is not a bad idea either. With that there are still vehicles parked throughout the city, but they will be a bit harder to find and acquire.
There is generally some good cover outside of the main streets, which would make the main streets a bit of a danger spot to be in and cross. Which I don't think is a bad thing.
While this sounds interesting and all I dont see it catching on.
1. There just arent enough players left playing to warrent a new mode and dist. Something like this will kill off fight club.
2. This event will be highly skill based so anyone who isnt a vet will be killed off first each time and will never get any rewards.
3. Something like this will always be ruined by the hacker pop. Hackers are still a MAJOR issue in APB and with the cheats they will easily roll everybody for top spots.
It is just very bad timing for something like this with the state the game is in. I would suggest reworking an old event like I suggested here http://forums.gamers...anarchy-events/ for now untill these issues are addressed and game pop rises to a point where having new districts wont impact the current ones in a bad way.
This will start out as an event, if there's enough interest in it after a few weeks we can make it permanent, if not we won't. Generally we see more people log in and try out new events when we put them out, so that should help while it is an event.
In order to have the same "feel" as a BR / PUBG game mode, you will need to strongly consider the "resource management' you mentioned in the blog post. A very weak weapon to start since APB doesn't have melee- something like the blowtorch even, or a snub nose with one or two magazines only- forces players to scatter to find weapons around the world. Also, having a reasonable minimum distance between player spawns would be nice if you do in fact spawn with a weapon.
It will deploy players throughout the district mostly at random. It will use our mission spawns for this, and assigns at most one player per mission spawn. These generally aren't too close together so it shouldn't be a problem.
Kempington: Control all elements of the weapon load-out. As nice as I'm sure it'd be to let joe shmoe roll around with this fully kitted N-TEC/ATAC/HVR and his exact choice of secondary, it really doesn't make it fair for newer players who only have a limited weapon pool. By controlling what weapons drop in the game, you can increase the rarity of some weapons (e.g HVR, so it's not a point-and-click survival game) and still make it fair for each participant.
Kewlin: Why is this necessary? You can use all of those guns in the normal game and it's virtually a non-issue, and the STAR is still pretty much top-tier.
Kempington: It's necessary, so players can start off on a level-playing field (you know, like how a battle royale game usually starts), then it's up to the player to find weapons and use them. If you let the players pre-select their weapons, it removes that sense of level playing field for some and it also means you can pre-design your "round" up to the point where the danger zone enters your area, which removes the danger for the most part. But, if you're going in without knowing what weapons you'll find, that makes it more challenging and more of a level playing field, honestly. Also, STAR is good, but you're highly overrating it. Might be the reason why nobody uses it.
Kewlin: Are you implying FC and mission districts aren't a level playing field? Are you implying there isn't danger of dying in missions, FC, or the headless horseman event? Do you "pre-design" missions? You're also forgetting the fact that this event is based just as much on the headless horseman event as battle royale, as well as the fact that Last Man Standing is a long standing gamemode that works fine with the normal resources of a game. And part of me overrating the STAR is. . . well. . . not a thing because the STAR is amazing, but I often appear to overrate it because it's the best weapon for new players since it's extremely easy to use. The STAR was basically designed to be the perfect newbie gun. (Also note how easy it is to unlock other weapons. So please, give me an actual reason the playing field isn't level if you can select weapons.
I'm thinking we can do both. Allow people to pick their loadout before the start, and then lock it. They will be limited in terms of ammo they have to what they can find and not change it once the round starts. Next to that we can put in weapon drops we can give to people with limited ammunition. This way, if you haven't found an ammo pickup, you might still find a weapon you like, or you might find a weapon that is more useful for the situation than the one you have currently. Gives new players the opportunity to try out different weapons too.
Kempington: Ban player owned vehicles. I think this is a no-brainer, but the only vehicles that players should be able to use are the ones that spawn in the city. That way, they won't have the vehicle mods in them to let said player drive around and sit in the car all day, whilst then driving off to a safe corner to blowtorch it back to full health. If there are random vehicles in the map, make sure they're limited and not dumptrucks/bluesteel vans.
Kewlin: I don't see how car mods make much of a difference here, so the only real benefit from owned vehicles is using a pioneer/4x4.
Kempington: So, steel plating 3, armoured engine and nitrous on a pioneer/4x4/t-25/Espacio and literally car gameplay-ing the entire survival round isn't a problem? So, you'd be ok with everyone spawning their vehicles and never getting out of them until the very end, since they can tank all the damage and then use blowtorch when in a safe spot to fix the car? Alright then. Glad to know that you also factored in the part where people can deliberatly setup their vehicles to "pop" into the car when in danger and run away. This isn't a car demolition derby, so why give the option to make it that?
Kewlin: Armored plating makes you slow as gosh darn, armored engine honestly has barely any effect, and nitro is overrated as all hell. You should have mentioned HBF if you wanted to cite a mod that'd be OP. I gave you the fact that using a pioneer, espacio, or 4x4 is an advantage, but you can't "car gameplay" the entire round, 'cause that's virtually a guaranteed loss or tie because of health degen in the final block, not to mention the fact that there's a such thing as grenades and AV. Think of how many cars get destroyed in the headless horseman event, and then realize that the area of this game is restricted. So I'm not going to say that you should be able to spawn cars, because I never even said that in my original response to you, but I really don't think they're a huge issue, and mods certainly aren't the issue; it's the cars that you can spawn that are a potential issue.
I'm in favour of disabling player-spawned as well. But more from a resource limiting perspective. In a way, vehicles are weapons as well, so limiting weapons while not limiting vehicles would not make sense.
Kempington: Ban player mods. May as well make it as much of a level playing field as possible and make it so that no consumables/character mods can be used either. Makes the fights much more risky for participants and forces them to play safer. Plus Clotting Agent 2/3 is more or less the staple character health mod everyone chooses so those without said mod are at a disadvantage in most cases.
Kewlin: Why? All character mods except orange mods, which will likely be disabled no matter what, are sidegrades, and even if you're going to say CA2 is an upgrade how is that different from the normal game? If you think CA2 is OP make a thread about it being a balance issue, not a post about banning it from this event.
Kempington: But this isn't the normal game. I don't know why you keep using that as a baseline for countering suggestions for this gamemode and saying that the rules can apply here as well. You're going to have more angles to watch out from, more people shooting at you at one time and you're saying that your health recovery delay being different from other people is not a direct advantage? Plus, as mentioned above, if you partner up a heavily tanky espacio with blowtorch and have your own CSG/.45 combo already planned out with low-yields from the get go, you can literally car gameplay the entire match, more or less, with no-one being able to stop you, unless multiple people focus fire you down, but they'd have no reason to.
Kewlin: Gee, IDK why I'm basing what I'm saying on the game this is going to be a game mode for. You yourself didn't even give any real reasons why they should be disabled in this mode in particular, you only said some bleeding heart BS about how the newbies wouldn't play as well without CA2/3. I don't know about you, but I generally watch all angles at all time in APB, 'cause I find that a lot of APB is about flanking, and you're gonna' get gosh darned in the butt if you don't watch angles, but IDK, it might be different for you. I seem to remember someone mentioning how you'd have time to get out of your pioneer and fully repair it without anyone attacking you. Note how much more defenseless you are with a blowtorch out than while hiding and regenerating health, especially if we're allowed the grenades you probably want to restrict, (and note how your torch is wasted if you have to swap back to your weapon,) and also note how often in the Headless Horseman event, which had respawns for enemy players, I was fighting 1v1 or 1v2, and unlike Headless Horseman your enemies are afraid of dying and also are afraid of the people flanking you. . . and don't have infinite lives. I don't know about you, but I'm not planning on plopping in the middle of the intersection in front of Double B and battling it out: I'm probably going to be in buildings and mommy, and when you put 70 players in roughly 2km by 2km area, even if it reduces in size, there's a LOT of places you can take cover in. I play fine without CA3, and I don't expect this to be any different. First off, you keep mentioning torch, and I already said I don't think orange mods will be be enabled, and they probably shouldn't be (literally the only orange mod that would make sense to be in the mode is. . . the flag? maybe spotter? I dunno'.) Second. . . what does an espacio. . . CSG. . . 45 (which you'll be able to have probably no matter what, 'cause it's a secondary) or yolos have to do with character mods? In addition, are you saying you've never had a car blown up by a single person? You're acting as if you live in a perfect world where everything goes according to plan, when in reality it's APB and mommy happens to gosh darn with you at some point no matter what in 95% of all missions, and you don't have a second life to fall back on like you normally do here. Also, you keep forgetting that you're going to eventually be driving this car around one block, which makes driving almost a moot point.
There are probably some specific mods we should disable, such as the ammo resuppliers. I'm not convinced all character mods should be disabled.
Kempington: Start of initially with players not having red names above their head (first 10 minutes or so), then have them revealed as the playing field reduces. I'm up in the air with this one, since it's a double-edged sword on both sides. If you don't have player names, then (assuming civilians are still enabled), it can make for some really silly scenarios where players can camp in super dark corners and not be seen. However, if player names are shown, then there's the problem of being able to exploit seeing through walls with the various bugs in the game that allow for this.
Kewlin: Seeing player names through walls is an issue with the entire game, so are you going to suggest we remove them entirely? No, that'd be like making it so you can't lean out of windows with the DoW because it has animation iss. . . oh wait. . . RP actually did that. IMO the game isn't balanced around not being able to see player names, and removing names drastically reduces incentives to have a cool character.
We'll probably use the system where only people making noise or under your reticule show them that we've used for other events in the past.
Kempington: Give incentive. I know this was briefly covered in the blogpost about rewards for the event, but like many others in the game who still play, there should be a unique loot table for continued play of this gamemode. If you have a look at PUBG, they give you credits that you can spend on boxes to give you new cosmetic items to make your character unique. This idea would be great for APB as well, but instead of that, have unique weapons in the loot table for the boxes that you can get from this gamemode, as well as possibly unique clothing items as well. If you just re-use already existing assets in the game that almost everybody already has, then there's no real incentive to play this gamemode and we'll go down the same path as the anarchy district.
Kewlin: I hope you like titles.
Rewards have yet to be determined. But titles and joker tickets are pretty likely at the very least.
Alright other than my first impression
Sort of will nitpick some dumb stuff and ask around.
Though to further explain, the above is a problem since, as i assume, you will spawn weapons as in other events, in places where you are either a sitting duck or a sitting duck.
Closed areas, as well as a clean up of the district with more "spots" to put stuff, can be proved important. Adding maybe even extra randomly placed cover objects (like abandoned/ destroyed cars in the middle of the street) can be quite welcomed too.
Closed areas i was suggesting earlier, would be fine, if they were small squares in place of where usually we ram shops. They can be extremely basic too, as long as it has got a bit of cover and enough room to run away from a grenade explosion radius.
Another thing, i feel that wasn't quite explained and i wish to ask is, how are ammo pick ups going to work? Is it like a floating thing that you just get near and instantly get or are we getting something entirely different?
I will start by explaining why i think this is important, so lets picture this scenario here:
- Player 1 and player 3 notice the ammo pick up, but they are being chased down by the other players.
- Player 1 manages to get rid of the player who was following him, but is further away from the ammo pick up than player 3.
- Both players are almost out of bullets, although enough to kill each other.
- Player 3 finally survives the encounter from the chase, but is with less health than player 1.
- Player 3 reaches to grab instantly the AMMO BOX (or crate, or whatever it is) and just as he grabs the ammo box, player 1 comes.
What happens in this scenario? It is either that player 3 just grabs and runs away, or that player 3 grabs it instantly and guns down player 1 that is coming to get it, since he has got the momentum.
Whoever picks up first is at ADVANTAGE. It isn't a thoughtful decision to pick it up now or not, its just ..that.
...It just negates the whole limited ammo thing.
I propose a small timer or something, like when we're doing objectives on APB mission districts, it doesn't need to be extremely long, just needs to be there.
Alright and now for something else, that is bothering me. (sorry)
Just thought about it recently and it is concerning DANGEROUS AREAS.
I have got no idea how fast they expand and consequently shrink the safe area. But what the hell happens if we get caught in a corner where we can't escape from the expanding dangerous area?
I mean, there are dead ends in apb maps/districts and considering the nature of the randomness of the end block, what happens when it is spawned in place that is impossible to get without being killed outright by an "dead end" scenario ?
Those little boxes tic 200 damage per second and if i am sure of it, it isn't enough time to run to a safe area before actuality dying.
Hell, you might end accidentally falling into a place where you get stuck!
... or are the blocks calculated based on how the streets are shaped?
My only solution for this right now is to add new shortcuts.
OTHER STUFF, while i think about what else to b**ch about :v
- Are cars even allowed? I hope not.
- Are we going to prevent players from bringing character mods entirely? i feel like it is necessary for this to work.
- Do we get a lobby while we wait dead or wait for the match to start?
- Have you guys considered using joker tickets as a test reward for this event? Maybe even add a special shop with a ton of new joker ticket rewards? ... Or maybe who knows.. a marketplace in which we can trade with joker tickets ?
- Can we get melee weapons as starting weapons :v ? Maybe it being attached to a specific mod for the event or something.. Like blowtorch...
There will be a timer on pickups. I have them set between 3 and 10 seconds right now, but will need to see what works. I'm not sure how much changes we can make to the actual map, but will see.
The areas are district blocks, individual blocks will become unsafe, which you will get told to get out of there, and how long you have. After the time runs out the block is dangerous and will kill you. It starts at the edge and moves inwards, so there shouldn't be a case where you get locked into a district block you can't get out of.
There won't be a lobby. You will be in the district while you wait for the match to start like the other events. However you can switch to a different district instance that is open to join a new match.
I wish we could do melee weapons, but that's currently not an option.
For your other questions, see above posts.
Maybe turn the interact-able into barricades than can be opened or shot down I mean i would hate to be shot down by a shaw because I cant move when I open a door
We've looked at doing this a few times in the past, but the system is so complicated that there's no way to do it that wouldn't require a major rework of the entire system, which spans everything from opening doors to entering vehicles, opening studios and other UI, doing missions activities and the like. I'll have another look what I can do, but I can't promise anything.
Wouldn't that over-complicate it? Moreover, that still gives the players who have the weapons they want the option of free choice at the start. If they play smart, they could hide out till the end and still have their favourite weapon throughout.
I can understand having both might work, but my intention was to ensure everyone is on an absolute level playing-field. That way, not even slight advantages at the start are even present. There were more suggestions to add to my previous post, but I'll put them here.
They would still need to find an ammo box in order to unlock their primary and/or secondary. At the start everyone would have just have access to a basic back-up weapon
Start all players off with blowtorches: They at least have a way to get potentially a kill on someone before getting a weapon, but it means it's up to them to get themselves kitted quickly and be ready. I have a feeling some mission spawn locations may overlap and cause insta-deaths on the spawn (as you mentioned above in regards to the spawn points). This would be one way to mitigate a bad RNG spawn location, since no-one can outright drop you at the start unless they really try.
I'm not yet sure if it'll be a regular blowtorch, event specific blowtorch that can't repair or something like a snubby; but that is the idea. That said, I don't believe those ever overlap. They are generally on street intersections. You will also have the normal amount of spawn immunity.
Have consumables banned, but can find and pick up consumables in the round: Little difficult to explain. Essentially, the consumables players have cannot be brought into the gamemode, but they can find stuff like large ammo boxes, medkits, epinephrine consumables lying around in the map. However, when they pick it up, it's only 1 of the item, to prevent easy stockpiling, so they have to use it sparingly. Allows for panic moments to swing in your favour and keeps things a little more interesting. Would work in the same way as bandages and medkits from PUBG.
While we're definitely going to disable certain consumables and character mods, putting in temporary activatables like that is a bit tricky.
This is more the further argue my claim for no character mods:
I'm afraid I'm still going to have to disagree with any character mods. Clotting agent may not sound like it gives a huge advantage, but the fact that it allows players to regenerate health earlier, albeit slower, means they are more likely to get back up to full health much faster than those without, if they make it out of a fight early and only lose up to 50% health. Those without have to wait considerably longer and that can be the game changer. Plus, Kevlar is a downright downside for all intents and purposes in this gamemode, for the most part, so it might be better to restrict people from using it, so they don't make a silly mistake.
The main vision I have here is to make sure that no-one has any tweaks to how their character handles themselves, as these small advantages can really make a difference in the long-run and cause newer players who may not have these mods unlocked yet the disadvantage. It's a bit of a weak standpoint using new players as the reasoning here, considering they most likely have no clue what they're doing anyway and lack the experience of APB to fully understand how to outplay people, but it's still a small basis, on top of the other factors such as players being allowed to choose their starting load-out.
To start, I don't think we should prevent people from making bad decisions. Part of APB is that you can make these decisions. Also, survival modes like this are inherently unbalanced due to the pick-ups and resource management; you make do with what you find, which can be a much bigger decider than the difference character mods create. When starting, the draw comes from trying to do better than your last time, and not being the first one to die.
At any rate, we might try some different versions to see what works better.
To add another idea to the player markers (above their heads)
After 15 minutes, if more than 25% of total participants are still alive, show markers above their head. If total alive drops below 25% before 15 minutes pass, show markers above players' heads. This is more to speed things up, but it could really add to the gameplay. This doesn't mean the free wallhacks you get in team deathmatch final stages or VIP, but just the red names appear again, rather than just noise or in the crosshair. That way, players start to become more visible the less there are left. That, on top of the reduced play areas, will make it easier for the last players to find each other, as there are several small areas in the blocks (especially in financial) that people can hide and camp in.
Part of survival is being able to hide from others. Also, I'm not entirely sure this is needed, especially if we don't have any pedestrians in the districts. At any rate, it's something we can do if it becomes a problem.
Supply drops: Would it be possible to ban some of the more powerful weapons in the game (HVR/Other sniper role weapons/All explosive weapons/legendary weapons) from the main drop table of weapons that spawn in the district and instead are only available through random drop crates that spawn very infrequently in a random block during the round? They could be surrounded by Praetorian/G-Kings marked vehicles (that could be used by players perhaps?) and are basically the same entity as the valentines/christmas boxes, so you could re-use that asset here.
When one of these crates spawn, a marker is put on the map and a broadcast goes out to all players that heavy weaponry can be found here (Or a supply shipment of the G-Kings/Praetorians has been lost. Find it to get some stronger weaponry).
- Localisation of mini-encounters/players: Creates a temporary hot spot where multiple people may take their chances with the crate to get a better weapon from this drop table (e.g HVR or a Scout or even an O-PGL)
- Generates risk
- Powerful, but very limited
Essentially, the same as air drops in PUBG. You could also throw a batch of consumables in the crate as well to give them a few extra of the current consumable they have (assuming they picked one up, otherwise 5x of a random consumable).
That sounds actually pretty tricky to code..
Currently we spawn all the weapons at the start of the match. While we can spawn weapons in during the match as a weapon drop, we can't do the same for vehicles, as a player could be in the way at that time, and it would be rather jarring to see those appear out of nowhere due to their size.
"ayyy mane let's team up"
"you know only one can win in the end right?"
"I'll let you win this round if you allow me to win the next"
Despite the RNG spawns, people like to go till the end to get their advantage.
True, but there's not too much we can do to prevent this. Especially with out of game communications being prevalent.
Regarding vehicles, why not wrecks scattered throughout the city with 2 to 5 low-tier vehicles drivable? No top-tier vehicles please.
What to me would be most fitting to spawn as drivable car would be a pickup truck of choice, and maybe a broadwing or han veo or something.
Also it'd be great if drivable vehicles wouldn't have 100% health but a random health percentage between 80 and 60% of the total health number.
There's a random selection of parked cars throughout the city, which are generally nothing special. Damaging all vehicles randomly is something we could look at, but but will likely cause all kinda of problems. Not entirely sure it's needed either.
Mostly refer to above.
I pretty much agree with what kempington says overall, except the one about putting markers above people's heads after X amount of time. The only restriction in a battle royale's pacing should be the circle. If a circle is small and surprisingly many people are still alive means that those players do well to survive, wanting to control pace by placing markers above people's heads punishes effort to do good by making it more difficult.
If players are in a comfortable spot and not in the absolute endgame center, they'll get pushed out of their comfortable zone and by that increase their risk to be spotted by others anyways.
Also to add to Kemp's supply drop part, a random green character mod, med spray, and a Scout/LMG. To make crate drops interesting.
One last thing I'd like to see is for the gamemode to have its own currency fairly handed out based on kills and how long you've survived, and have unique items to spend it on (weapon variants, weapon skins, clothes).
And most importantly: please let us test it thoroughly! Let the community help you make it a gamemode worth keeping.
I think you misunderstood me, so I've edited my previous post to be a bit more clear.
Something something asking for suggestions, something something would rather "try something new", something something failed event/ execution, something something infuriated playerbase for making something worse than something tried, tested and proven to work, something something never bothering to fix the problems and try again, something something history repeating itself.